From: Hans Jostlein (jostlein@fnal.gov)
Date: Fri Jun 10 2005 - 10:16:10 CDT
Thanks for clarifying the properties of the data acquisition that you are
thinking of.
You mention the sub-nsec time resolution for a given signal shape.
This must refer to determining the event starting time or the mean arrival
time for light.
It does not, I believe, allow you to separate the light arriving within 20
nsec from the first photon
(which is the only relevant time in the problem) from reflected light
starting after 20 nsec.
This would be especially true if there is a system clock that is not
synchronized to the arrival of the first photon.
The reflected light has two deleterious effects on our ability to locate
where an event took place:
a. It generally washes out the light distribution
b. Reflectors, by necessity, are not random surfaces, yet very complex.
As a consequence, I don't think one can use the reflected light in the
localization, or even correct for it.
Sincerely
Hans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Pilcher" <j-pilcher@uchicago.edu>
To: "Hans Jostlein" <jostlein@fnal.gov>; "Steve Biller"
<Steven.Biller@physics.ox.ac.uk>; "Braidwood Collaboration"
<braidwood@hep.uchicago.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: Light Concentrators
> Dear Steve and Hans,
>
> Your exchange below mentioned electronics so I'm piping up.
>
> The electronics design described in the past has been based on a 25
> ns sampling time and a mild integration of the PMT signal to be
> consistent with this and the ADC bandwidth. It would be relatively
> easy to go to 15 ns sampling time using commercial parts and the same
> basic design. I don't think there is any problem of losing the late
> light in the energy measurement but its impact on timing would take
> some study. A well known signal shape certainly helps the time
> resolution for a given sampling time. The 25 ns sampling time gives
> a sub ns time resolution for a stable signal shape, so in this limit
> the time resolution is determined by the PMT.
>
> It would be very helpful to the electronics design to have an optical
> simulation of the detector with photon arrival times. I think we
> need this to make further progress in the readout electronics design.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jim
>
> At 3:44 PM -0500 6/9/05, Hans Jostlein wrote:
> >Thanks for the cool pictures, Steve
> >Do you have a sensitivity curve vs. polar angle for your PMT/
concentrator
> >combination, and the same thing without concentrators, but normalized to
one
> >another?
> >I'd love to see that.
> >
> >I fear that 15% of reflected light can muddle the event location
> >reconstruction ,
> >but we need to model that.
> >I think the jury is still out on electronics.
> >If I remember right, the scintillation light tails off with a time
constant
> >of many nanoseconds (Dick, Mingfang ?)
> >For an event in the middle of the acrylic sphere the reflected light is
> >delayed by some 25 nsec or so.
> >My vague recollection is that the electronics sampling frequency in the
> >conceptual design was longer than that.
> >If someone knows, please tell us.
> >
> >Sincerely
> >
> >Hans
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Steve Biller" <Steven.Biller@physics.ox.ac.uk>
> >To: "Braidwood Collaboration" <braidwood@hep.uchicago.edu>
> >Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 10:26 AM
> >Subject: Re: Light Concentrators
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks Hans,
> >>
> >>
> >> I've included pictures detailing the SNO concentrator geometry and
> >> photos of what was actually manufactured and how it attached to
> >> the PMTs. In addition, I've included a very rough sketch of an idea
> >> that Nick and I had about how one might encase multiple PMTs and
> >> concentrators into hexagonal sub-units that could be manufactured
> >> and tested off-site and then simply attached to the inside of the
> >> vessel with central bolts. This would provide a secure yet flexible
> >> support structure to cushion the tubes during movement.
> >>
> >> Here are some more specific answers to your questions:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hans Jostlein wrote:
> >>
> >> >Thank you for your detailed and useful summary , Steve.
> >> >I am very pleased that someone is running honest models on this.
> >> >I am not surprised that some 30% gains are possible (the strawman
cone I
> >> >showed in my note would do that, most likely),
> >> >which is certainly worthwhile if it does not compromise our ability
to
> >> >locate events.
> >> >Since 3/4 of the area would be covered with reflectors, one might
> >actually
> >> >realize (theoretically, and in the absence of absorption)
> >> >a fourfold gain if we boldly sum the geometric series (1 + 3/4 +
(3/4)^2
> >. .
> >> >.)
> >> >
> >> I think Lioville limits you to less than a fact of 2 without
sacrificing
> >> more solid angle and cutting into the fiducial volume.
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >I have a few concerns which you may already have thought of and have
the
> >> >answers to:
> >> >
> >> >a. Do you have a sketch of your concentrator design?
> >> >I would very much like to see that
> >> >
> >> >b. Do the concentrators stick out to where they deflect light that
> >> >otherwise would hit a PMT directly?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yes, the concentrators necessarily baffle the PMTs to a more
restricted
> >> solid angle. For SNO, this was another advantage as it shielded them
> >> from light due to radioactivity near the PMT. For Braidwood, this is
> > > less of an issue since the scintillation light from the fiducial
> >> region is much greater, but I think it is unlikely to be a
disadvantage
> >> for us to restrict things more to the fiducial volume. We should, of
> >> course, study this just to be sure.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >c. Braidwood uses scintillation light, not Cerenkov.
> >> > Also, the detector is quite bit smaller than SNO.
> >> >In view of those factors, do you expect we can differentiate, by
timing,
> >> >between first light and reflected light?
> >> >Does our electronics design (such as it is) allow us to do that?
> >> >If we can't differentiate, I suspect that the ability to locate the
event
> >is
> >> >seriously
> >> >compromised by the reflected light, which tends to illuminate PMT's
more
> >> >uniformly than the direct light.
> >> >Can your model predict localization with and without integrating over
all
> >> >light, or up to some delay time ?
> >> >
> >>
> >> We should be able to deal with this. By far, most of the hits are
due to
> >> direct light with good timing information and, often, multiple hits.
> >> The increased coverage should help in this regard with better
sampling.
> >> Even if there's, say, a 15% tail of reflected late light, these
should
> >> be easily identifiable as being out-of-time relative to the main
pulse.
> >> You can either throw out poor residuals in an iterative fit
procedure,
> >> or measure the late tail with calibration sources and use likelihood
> >> to take it into account. Again, this is pretty much born out in SNO,
> >> but we clearly should verify this more explicitly for Braidwood and
this
> >> is one of the things we're working towards with our simulations.
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >d. It has been pointed out that the PMT's (Hamamatsu R5912's) have a
> >> >significant drop off in QE at their curved edges:
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yes, that's the case with SNO tubes too. That's one of the reasons
> >> why we get a smaller factor than the Lioville limit.
> >>
> >>
> >> - Steve
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >----
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >----
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >----
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >----
>
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.6 : Sun Jun 12 2005 - 03:10:16 CDT